Thursday, December 06, 2007

YouTube - Funny Swedish Prison Cell

No idea how real this is. But it made me shake my head. And I even chuckled a bit to myself, mostly because I can't believe it. So enjoy.

I'm undecided. But even I have a hard time believing this is an actual prison. Unless it is just one of those white collar fancy prisons and someone forgot to mention that in the post. Very possible I suppose.

But please, please, don't let this be a prison where you serve 10 years for murder. That just can't happen. Right? Anyone, please, someone tell me that this is in fact just a white collar prison or some sort of halfway home like thing.

I’ve made a lot of comments about the justice system here. But this, if it is real, could be the last straw. This is nicer than the dorm room I lived in my freshman year of university. Seriously. I could kick my roommate from my bed when he was on his. They were tiny. Granted my roommate wasn’t a criminal so that helped the overall atmosphere in the room, but it looks like the room shown in the video is a single.

Maybe someone knows someone who has a cousin whose girlfriend’s mom’s best friend knows what’s going on here. Because I want to know. I’m very curious.

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  1. jesus. its probably true because many swedes tell me that here the prisons are like luxury hotels for them. send them all the USA's prisons once and see how they make

  2. im sure it can be according to many swedes i work with

  3. You know, criminals aren't put in prison to have a bad time and be treated like shit, they're there to become better people and citizens.

    Of course, another purpose, maybe the main purpose, is for them to be punished but the punishment doesn't have to be a bed made of stone, being locked up in a five inch-cell 7 days straight or getting a dick up your ass when you shower. I think the punishment of not being free and be able to go where you want is enough and serves better to teach the criminals anything than anything of what I mentioned above.

    Personally, I rather have the criminals sent here, than to an American prison, where they're being treated as animals. What's good that gonna do? Huh? Humiliation and corporal punishment doesn't teach anyone shit. Now, I'm not saying it should be a holiday, but believe me it isn't...

  4. Well I agree that they shouldn't be treated like complete shit. But I have no problem with prisoners having a bad time. It's prison. In fact they probably should have a bad time. They went to prison for a reason.

    This problem also brought up an interesting phenomenon which I believe is brought about by main stream pop culture and media. That of prisoners being raped every day they spend in prison. I blame movies and Oz. Just because a movie said so doesn't make it true. Granted I've never been in prison so I'm just giving an opinion based no personal experience.

    Prisoners are sent to prison to be locked awa from the public and to be rehabilitated if that's the word to be used. But doing so in someplace like this video shows is just too much for me. That place had a restaurant, personal bathrooms in the room, it looked liked a college dorm room. Granted they can't come and go when they want, but it sure doesn't look like they were inconvenienced too much. And that's where I have a problem.

  5. This is for Anonymous...

    my oldest brother has been in prison for a long time. this is in the USA. you have to pay for everything you need,. its a hard life in there, not easy and its not pretty. its made that way for a reason i believe...its so maybe you learn your lesson so you dont want to go back to a place such as this.

    not so that if you get in trouble its no big deal...when my brother has no money to buy things, he cant but toilet paper there,something thats up to him, which makes him have to beg family for money...which he doesnt always get. hopefully he will learn his lesson next time and realize that prison is NOT a place he wants to be.Other people who commit murder dont get a second chance in life...

    and why should they? they took a life! they killed someone! if they killed my child, or yours,or maybe your parents, would you honestly be ok with them getting out and possibly killing again? wouldnt you want them to stay in there for good and suffer like the person they killed? i do.

  6. ok..if they did something stupid like rob a store, of course they dont need to stay in for all eternity...but the harsh things..yeah ,theydeserve what they get. dumb idiots.

  7. I'm not saying anything about letting them out so they can start killing again, so I have no idea why you're talking about that. I was only talking about that they shouldn't be treated like animals.
    Listen, I'm not saying it should be like a day care centre or something.

    I'm sorry your brother went to prison, now, I don't know what he did, but don't you want him to at least be treated like a human being, like a person? Even if he has murdered someone? Even murderers are people, you know.

    I feel this is something that the American government is yet to realize. I think the whole prison system and even the whole law system in USA is very inhumane. For example, how many other countries kill teenagers in the name of the law?

    Shouldn't they get a second chance? Everyone should get a second chance, well, with exceptions for people like Hussein or Hitler. I mean, can you really justify one killing with another killing? Because, no matter how you look at it, sending people to the chair is killing. Are we back to eye for an eye here?

    USA is almost 100% Christian country and you aren't allowed to make an abortion, not even if you were raped. The reason? All life is holy. Really, is that so? How come the government send hudnreds of people to the chair every year, then?

    I'm not a Christian, or in fact religious, in any way but it seems to me that if the government and people of USA looked closer in to the values of the Christian religion they would realize that they had forgotten one main message. In fact, a main message in many religions. Forgiveness. I say no more.

  8. I'm with Mrs. Cecrux on this one. Especially because theres just so much wrong with what anonymous has said.

    Anonymous states that a government that assumes everone is innocent until proven guilty, a government that allows for a person to be tried by a jury of their peers, a government that offers a whole hell of a lot of rights is inhumane. We have two very definitions of that word then. And the killing of teenagers in the name of the law? Ridiculously rare. Can't be tried as an adult until you're 18. Not many who are executed anyway. Common misconception. And just wrong. Especially since so many states don't even use the death penalty.

    In regards to abortion. What? Abortion is legal in the US. Check out Roe v. Wade for that little tid bit.

    And that the US is almost 100% Christian. Wow. Not even close. Granted it was founded on very Christian ideals, just as much of Europe was. Let's not try to play the religion card. Hell I'm not even religious and I thought that was a ridiculously ignorant thing to say.

    And so, in regards to your last statement. I forgive ou. For not generalizing and using false statements for your basis of opinion on the justice system in the United States. Youa re forgiven.

  9. I seem to have scared anonymous away. My comment may have been a bit harsh. Sorry about that. I just got a bit fired up because of all the false statements.

  10. Some numbers were just printed in a newspaper here in Sweden a few days ago stating that less than 50 people were executed in the US. A far cry from the "government send[ing] hudnreds (sic) of people to the chair every year" as anonymous posted.

  11. It's not about the numbers, it's about the sheer fact that the American government and state is allowed to kill people. Be it a few hundred or about 50, it's still insane. What boggles my mind, is the attitude many Americans has towards it. They're OK with it, you even defend it. The state is killing teen-agers, as well, because guess what? If you're 18 or 19, you are a teenager.

    I know I said some ignorant and untrue things, I haven't got all the facts... But what I said about the law system of USA being inhumane I still stand by. I didn't mean the whole system, or everything about, but there are some things in there that is very inhumane. Like the death sentences. Basically, what they're saying is you killed someone (I'm assuming most of the people who are death sentenced have killed someone/someones), and that's wrong, and because of that we're gonna kill you.

    How are they going to get a chance to redeem themselves and to make up for the wrong thing/things they've done? Even if they aren't killed, there are; i don't know how many but I'm guessing quite a few, that get life sentences. And in USA a life sentence is a life sentence. How is a 18-year old going to learn something and become a better person if he's killed? Or if he's in there practically the rest of his life?

    To me, that's just bullshit and inhumane. That's what I meant in my previous post and i stand by it, so what are you forgiving me for?

  12. No number are very important. In fact your previous comments have all been citing numbers to back up your claims. None of which have been correct. Which skews the view of what you are trying to argue.

    And talking about numbers, there were only 42 people executed this year in the US. Only 36 states allow the death penalty with only 34 having used it since 1976. The number of people executed as dropped consistently since 1999 and the number of people sentenced to death has dropped even more significantly.

    In response to your teenager claim. As far as I know no teenagers has ever been executed in the US since the death penalty was brought back in 1976. Teenagers have be sentenced to die but I don’t believe they have been killed while still teenagers.

    And expounding further on that. Yeah, 18 and 19 year olds are teenagers. But they are considered adults. Just about everywhere. Even here in good old Sweden 18 is the year you are considered myndig. You are an adult. Again you are trying to use numbers to make your claims. 18 is just a number. You are considered an adult by society.

    Your comments have been riddled with errors. And that’s where I have a problem. Feel free to have opinions. Even opinions I don’t agree with but back them up with correct facts. Being specific about what in the US is inhumane is very important. Argue that the death penalty is inhumane but don’t argue that the entire system is inhumane.

    In regards to your comment about making up for what you have done. You killed a person. Nothing you can do will ever make up for that. You took a life. You can’t bring a life back. Can’t do it. And you’re right, a life sentence in the US means exactly what it says. Life is life. As it should be.

    So once again as my previous sarcastic comment stated, I forgive you for your ignorant, false statements and continued use of generalizations to form your argument.

    Let me just be clear, I have no problem with your opinion what so ever. Just back it up with better information that can’t so easily be argued away. If you’re going to argue that the death penalty being inhumane argue about how most experts in the justice system don’t find it as an effective preventative of murder. Argue that mistakes can be made, and although rare, do happen. And that’s a damn big mistake. Argue that it is more costly to the taxpayers to execute someone than it is to keep them locked up for life. Argue that public opinion for the death penalty has been dropping steadily and that when given the choice between death and life in prison a majority choose life in prison. Just argue something that can be back up with actual facts.

  13. whoa, you guys have some pretty strong opinions and i think you need to "agree to disagree"

  14. You're probably right. But I'm always down for some eated debate. Gets the blood flowing!

  15. "USA is almost 100% Christian country and you aren't allowed to make an abortion, not even if you were raped. The reason? All life is holy. Really, is that so? How come the government send hudnreds of people to the chair every year, then?"

    So many Swedes have opinions like this of the US because they're fed this bullshit from SVT, Sweden's public service TV. Seriously, 90% of the coverage of the US exclusively features stupid poor black people (uniformed victims) and extremely stupid fat white people (ignorant aggressors).

    It's infuriating when you realize we have to pay $320/year to be fed this. This and brainless sing along shows. Even when I had NO income in Sweden (which Swedes refuse to believe: i.e. "you've made a mistake on your application". Just as the US is unfair and brutal, mother Sweden is caring and generous and would never allow anyone to have no income).

    Of course, native Swedes know how to play the system, lie and don't pay their "TV license"... I hope hairy swede writes one on this if he gets a chance to take a critical look at our fine, Swedish, public broadcasting.

  16. well said - there is an overarching theme of holier than thouness that Swedes often ahve. especially inragrds to the US when it comes to thing like the environment, welfare, death penalty, war, racism. All of the hot button issues. Because the Swedes are right. Always. They have no problems. But so many cheat the system in some way. Its ridiculous. And I like the idea about the tv-license post. I might have to look into that! Check out a few of the most discussed posts off to the right hand side. You'll find all kinds of interesting comments fueled by the Swedish media. Like 40-60% of the American population is ignorant. Gems all around really!

  17. There was an English comedy show years ago, along the lines of Mr. Bean, that made a joke of the Swedish jail system. In it, the man is taking a cruise around the nordic countries. In Stockholm, he gets off the boat to see the city, gets really drunk and gets arrested. When he wakes up the next day, he doesn't know where he is. He spends the next week in jail, having a great time, because his room is neat and clean, he gets served nice meals, meets friendly people and there are lots of activities. At the end of the week, he is put back on the boat and goes home. At home, he tells everyone about this special cruise package and how he plans to do it again. Apparently, it's funny because it is true.

  18. I'll be honest... I can't stand Mr. Bean, and granted you said this wasn't Mr. bean but I was hesitant when I first started reading your comment. But this sounds hilarious.

  19. i can't be's very nice..

    Tamil Actor vijay

  20. Again I feel the need to add a few comments.

    1. The use of prison
    There are several fundamental principles behind the use o prisons. One is of course the penalty issue. To make people follow the written law there has to be a downside to not doing it.
    Also prison serves as a place for "rehabilitation" (my english falters, I can´t come up with the right term). Meaning, that ones you get out there should be more than the risk of being back in prison that keeps you from commiting crime. This is the part that is really being looked at all over the world, with work programs, miniture economys, leading dog programs etc.

    2. I don´t have the numbers so pleace critisize me on this if you think I´m wrong. People who have ones been in jail are more likely to commit crimes. That is, a higher percent of the ex-con population will commit crimes than the percentage of non-ex-felons. Get me?
    If you spend time in a hard prison with a lot of violence and gangs i figure this number will go up further. This is one fact I know i´m not wrong about. USA has one of the biggest numbers of convicted people serving time. In the male black population I think around 3-5% are in prison. This may seem lika small number, but concidering that the goal for pople outside the workmarket being 4% in sweden it becomes clear that it´s huge.

    I don´t know if the swedish system works, but I think that the future of prisons is not the rough road. Getting these people back into society working, paying taxes, NOT robbing people has to be priority one.

  21. you bring up some good points. and youre right one of the main ideas is rehabilitation. my main problem is with the violent crimes that result in such short prison sentences (murder, rape, etc.).

    I do believe however that prison should be a punishment and should be seen as one. although there are limits.

  22. A guy commits a crime and kill someone or whatever. The US government finds out that this guy did something illegal so they're gonna show the right way for the public and this criminal guy, so they kill him. How can the government kill people when they consider it to be wrong to kill? It doesnt make any sense... How can you put someone in jail for the rest of their life? What is the purpose of that?

    There is a difference between punishing criminals hard and try to help them, change criminals. I believe if you do something criminal you have a problem that you need help with. If you try to make a hell in a prison for the criminals, you only drag them down in the shit and they will try to give back to the government or the public somehow in the future.

  23. I need to say this again, its mentioned before, but the US very seldom uses the death penalty. And plenty of states dont even have the death penalty. And those that do, there aren’t a whole lot of crimes that can even lea to the death penalty.

    This seems to be a huge misconception abroad of how the US uses the death penalty.

    I’m not a big fan of it. That being said, I don’t have much problem at all with life in prison. Real life in prison. Not Swedish life in prison.

    In the end though, I believe that prison should be treated as punishment. Someone who goes to prison is being punished for the choices they made. The actions they took. The crimes they committed. Especially when it comes to violent crimes.

    Rehabilitation is important. But so is punishment.

  24. its true. "kriminalvården" literally translates to "the criminal care [system]". the idea is that its about results and reform not vengeance

  25. thats absolutely right, and something that should have mentioned earlier because it really does explain the swedish view on prison time. I dont necessarily agree with it but it definitely helps to explain the swedish way of thinking.

  26. Of course this isn't a prison for mudurers etc! don't be stupid.

  27. of course. thats because murders get out of prison after just a few years in stockholm.

  28. C'mon now. In the U.S., there are also various kinds of places for storing criminals. You probably have low security facilities, half-way houses, places for non-dangerous and socially well-adjusted economic criminals, etc. What you see in that youtube-clip is of course NOT where dangerous people are kept.

    There are six different security classes for the 56 "prisons" in Sweden. Class F has the lowest security and is a so-called open facility ("öppen anstalt"), while classes A-E are closed facilities ("sluten anstalt"). There are two class A facilities (thus highest security), Kumlaanstalten and Hallanstalten. I think that youtube video would look dramatically different if it had been filmed at either of those two... It is probably for security reasons (photography presumably forbidden) that I haven't been able to find photos or film of or from those facilities. To film from an open facility and pretend that's it's a normal Swedish prison seems rather silly to me.

  29. I did some research at To correct myself, the facility in the film is NOT an open facility and thus NOT of the lowest security class (the "inmates" are only locked up at night at such facilities). The pictures are from and show Nyköpingsanstalten, which is a class E facility, thus of the second lowest security class. Here is how Kumlaanstalten (highest security class) looks like:

  30. good work on the research. but the act that there is something nicer than this for criminals blows my mind. I just kind of assumed this was the nicest there was. Ive lived in places that weren't as nice as this.

  31. Enjoy open facilities in the form of nice villas or mansions in idyllic environments:

    "Så tar du dig till anstalten
    Med tåg/buss: Tåg till Ockelbo. Om du är intagen hämtas du vid järnvägsstationen av personal från anstalten."

    Gruvberget är beläget mitt i Bollnäs Finnskog, med stora möjligheter till aktiviteter i naturen, såsom skidåkning, bad, vandring, bärplockning med mera."

  32. my favorite part is by far the sentence about getting to the facility. I love it.

  33. almost everything with usa sucks.

    Sweden 4-ever!

  34. and who said swedes weren't nationalistic?

  35. I so enjoy reading this discussion about Sweden's prison system which I did not know the details about.

    Here it is a distinct culture difference between Americans and Swedes. Americans are generally on the side of the victim and has no sympathy for the criminal. The criminal should be punished and the victim compensated, that is how I understand it.

    Swedes have sympathy for the victims of course, but also for the criminal in some ways. The criminal is misguided, have not been treated right in his childhood, coming from social deprived background, etc and the criminal must be educated and trained so he can function properly in society again.

    Most Americans 70-80% about are in favor of the death penalty. Most Swedes and Europeans are against the death penalty and it is not allowed in EU.

    I am too, I do not want to give the government the right to kill it's own citizens for any reason.

  36. you're right, it is very mucha cultural thing, and I think you nailed it, in the US the victim is just that, a victim. here in Sweden, the criminal can also be a victim.

    But I will have to jump in, I think the latest numbers are showing that Americans in favor of the death penalty is now in the 60% range.

  37. Just a few pointers.
    Life sentence is a life sentence even in Sweden.
    That people get a pardon from their life sentences doesnt change the fact that if they didnt get the pardon, they would still be in prison for the rest of their life.

    The "Open prison" Gruvberget can't really be counted as a prison in that regard as its used for interns that serves sentences at other prisons and go to Gruvberget for 1-2 weeks with their families.

    Point beeing they don't serve their sentence their, its a temporary placement after filled applications.

    But yeah Murderers are placed in Open facilities from time to time.

    And I believe the main difference is that in a swedish prison (doesnt really matter if it´s Hall (A Class) or Svartsjö (E class)
    The big point isnt that it should be nasty. The main points is that you do not have your freedom, you can't make your own choices etc. THAT is the punishment. The freedom part is one of the worst part that you can loose as a human beeing.

    I'm not fond of the idea that people that are sent to prison should be terrified for their and their families lifes or of getting raped etc.

    Yes they did wrong. They are sent to a facility to serve out their sentence, away from their families,friends etc.
    Most of the times they are supposed to get out in the society again.
    Who do you belive would fit in better? The guy that's been raped,beaten,humiliated for the last 10-20 years?
    Or the guy that´s been somewhat damaged from beeing locked away from the world but got help keeping in touch with his loved ones even tough he did a crime?


  38. understandable, and I agree that prison needs to focus on rehabilitation. that being said, as I have mentioned before, I just believe that the Swedish system needs to balance that rehabilitation with punishment as well and reading about the justice system here in Sweden it seems that punishment is often forgotten and the criminal is seen more as a victim.

  39. You Americans apparently think that the Swedish prison system isn't hard enough for the inmates and you propably also think that it cost way more money than the American system, well you're wrong.

    Well in Sweden they belive that if you want to make someone stop his criminal path, the only way is to show him the right way. By that I mean giving him council and maybe even psychiatric care. When that's done, you can slowly take him out in the working life again (or for the first time). The prison itself are not longer only a prison for the inmate, it's also his workplace, and where he lives (he just can't leave). Beacuse of this gentle treatment, the Swedish inmates are not so likely to fall back in their old habits (some do but most don't).

    When foreigners see the Swedish prisons and also how the inmates are being treated, many thinks it odd that the Swedish people are willing to pay so that the criminals can live in these so called "luxury hotels".

    Beacuse it most cost a tremendous amount of money, right?

    No actually it don't. to paint the concrete walls in a nice color and put in a decent bed and a TV, and letting the inmates decorate his own "room" to some extent doesn't cost more than a couple hundred dollars. And how often do you repaint and replace the bed and TV?
    Not very often.

    And since most inmates never return again and beacuse almost no one have to spend 10+ years in prison (like they do in the USA) that's also a money saver.

    By that I don't mean that you should let them out just for the sake of it, but I think you understand my point.

    Now let's talk about the American system.

    First of all it's not so nice inside of the prison walls, i guess you all know that :)
    And beacuse of the massive influence from gangs and similar organisations the prisons aren't a good place to be rehabilitated and to make your way back to society.

    Therefore many American inmates often return to crime when they are released.

    Many actually become serious criminals first after they been sent into prison.

    Maybe you think I'm just full of s**t, but I have done some research in this subject.

    Well let's see how cheap and effective the American prison system is.

    Here are some facts:

    "Currently there are 2.2 million Americans behind bars.
    They cost the country $60 billion a year. (2005)"

    "The number of Americans imprisoned is obnoxiously high."

    "The United States has the highest per capita rate of people in prison.
    In the year 2000, the Human Rights Watch found that 22 states and the federal prison system operated at 100 percent or more of their highest capacity. Due to this extreme overcrowding the rise in privately operated facilities has recently spiked. Such private prisons now house 5.5 percent of all state prisoners and 2.5 percent of all federal prisoners. This information was gathered from the Human Rights Watch article on the general state of the American prison system."

    "Prisons are a costly enterprise. Prisoner maintenance a few years ago averaged around $7,041 a year per prisoner for adult jails and $9,439 for adult prisons. In a few states the figure exceeded $20,000 per prisoner. Construction costs range from $25,000 to $50,000 per bed. Nationwide this price has meant a $5 billion construction bill for the 800 local, state and federal institutions that in January 1977 were planning to add 200,000 prison beds. The state lost tax revenue, and welfare costs for inmate-related families added still another layer of expenditures that governmental agencies had to build into their expanding criminal-justice budgets.
    It has been questioned whether or not the crimes many Americans have been imprisoned for actually merit incarceration as the fairest, most economical, efficient, and ethical punishment option."

    //The Foreigner

  40. "In reality, how effective is the prison system?
    The definition of a correctional facility is “a prison”. But is this really the case; are prisons really correctional facilities?"

    "Upon their investigation, the Human Rights Watch found that many prison inmates have “scant opportunities for work, training, education, treatment, or counseling” because of taxpayer resistance to increasing the already outrageous amount on money spent on the prison system. Finding themselves in such seemingly hopeless situations, inmates with long sentences, little hope of release, who are jammed into poorly equipped facilities—therefore with little incentive for good behavior—often become violent."

    "The Human Rights Watch also found that prisoner on prisoner sexual abuse is currently a rising issue in the US prison system, as the number of inmates continually increases. As the issue of rape increases, so do the numbers of those both physically and psychologically damaged. Physical effects vary from instance to instance and include the transmission of diseases/infections, such as HIV (a particularly growing concern). The psychological stress that inevitably follow sexual abuse is another area of great concern as “victims of prison rape commonly report nightmares, deep depression, shame, loss of self-esteem, self-hatred, and considering or attempting suicide.” Because of the damages that accompany sexual abuse anger and tendencies toward violence often increase. Perhaps the most disconcerting aspects of the issue of sexual abuse in prisons is that “prison authorities, unsurprisingly, generally claim that prisoner-on-prisoner sexual abuse is an exceptional occurrence rather than a systemic problem”. Due to this attitude, along with the issues of funding previously discussed, victims of sexual abuse in prisons do not often receive adequate care."

    "Missing from and unable to be seen in the statistics above is the number of children left with one or no parents, the families that struggle to make ends meet with limited income, and cyclic nature of imprisonment in the U.S. This cycle mentioned now is one in which children lacking opportunity become constrained in a sort of negative mindset without the influences of essential figures in their lives."

    And this is going on in a land that worship freedom more than anything else... it's sad.

    But don't believe that I think the Swedish system is perfect, I just think it's much better.

    //The Foreigner

  41. and as I continue to say, I believe the Swedish system needs to balance punishment and rehabilitation more. Too often it seems that the criminal is seen as the victim and that any sense of punishment is forgotten. I have no problem with focusing on rehabilitation and believe it is important.

  42. I work at this particulary prison, it´s a low security prison and the "ordinary" inmate serves about 3-4 month, some 1-2 years but they often goes to "open" prisons the last part of their "punishment"....It´s Sweden

  43. I think the fact that punishment was written with quotation marks around it says everything.

  44. Without a doubt, the prison system is the last bastion-- and indeed an accurate representation of--our collective indifference to our fellow human.

    No matter which side of the discussion you follow, genetics or conditioning, one should be able to find forgiveness. If it is indeed conditioning, then criminals could be a deeply humbling lesson; we would realize that if we were put in the exact same circumstances, with the exact upbringing and social standing, exact access to education and influential role models (or otherwise), we would commit the exact same acts. If indeed it is genetics, then caging up a criminal is no worse than putting away a disabled person. More than likely, it's both. Regardless, to condemn and punish these people is unconscious cruelty. Plain and simple.

    In countries like Sweden, society has reached a high level of enlightenment to these notions, and their prison system accurately represent this. We are not punishing people, we are rehabilitating them. The sooner we realize this, the sooner our society can advance. Until then, we will be stuck the very cycles hate and self-loathing that could ultimately destroy this planet and ourselves.

  45. as I have constantly said, I do believe rehabilitation is important, however, I do not think that to completely disregard any sense of punishment is enlightened. quite the opposite, I think it is naive and does more harm than good.

  46. ...and we aren't sad to see you go...